Socrates whole stand was defending the Athenian laws and codes of justice during that time, which he rightfully did. On that point he was correct. There's no point in having laws and punishments if every convicted individual flees to escape what may be a just punishment. However, Socrates was convicted of "corrupting the youth of Athens" which gets lost in these discussions. Corrupting the youth sounds like a very subjective crime. I'm not sure if he had the ability to appeal or if that's a more modern convention, but when reading about the trial it doesn't sound like he defended himself very well and there were a lot of high ranking officials who were annoyed with what Socrates was doing. And on that point, defending himself, holding the Athenian justice system to its own high standards, and putting the accusers on the stand he was wrong.
Just my thoughts and happy to read what other people think too.
He was tried and sentenced primarily for rejecting to honor the traditional gods of Athens, and for corrupting the youth it was because he was teaching them to disregard traditional values and question authority.
To me, that’s clear it was a losing game. Not sure if he could’ve defended himself well enough when the game was set against him.
Having been taught under the Socratic method for three years... it's not all it's cracked up to be. And sometimes wasteful of both the instructors and students' time
The Socratic method is useful for exploring spiritual and intelligible concepts but definitely breaks down when considering tangible objects. The Socratic method also requires that you accept contradicting yourself because your point in one discussion may use the same words to describe something completely different in another discussion. Many miss this important aspect.
If his previous philosophical reasoning was sound and just, then a death sentence because of that reasoning (for supposedly causing the youth to question the status quo) is unjust. If his reasoning was not sound before then perhaps it was not sound as he reasoned in the present that his death was just. In any event, always get multiple opinions in a case of life and death and Socrates had only consulted one other philosopher. There would be no opportunity to correct such a methodological error after death, but he could always agree to death later if there was a consensus.
Not a philosopher but I wonder if there is a notion of fairness that is missing from these arguments. Can a decision be 'just' but be unfair? That is what the Socrates case feels like to me.
“Did Socrates make the right decision to accept his punishment” is the theme of my philosophy class! Students usually start out thinking no, and by the end of the semester tend to argue yes. Me personally I vacillate.
(Side note: I disapprove of the AI thumbnail, especially for a blog about classical literature/education.)
Sounds like a great class! As to your side note, may I ask why? Is it a compelling image? Does it accurately portray the nature of the article? Is it just the use of AI? Genuinely curious!
Do you think it is inherently anti-human? or as a man-made technology an extension of humans? I like to contemplate how Socrates complained about writing... I think these relationships are always more complicated than they first appear.
My Socratic-style argument is that AI images are a further distortion of reality than even paintings and other art which he/Plato considered distractions from a search for truth and perfect forms. Of course, I think man-made art and writing are good— they’re what makes human lives interesting, imo— but AI removes the human here. The ultimate telos of AI, per the CEOs at the big AI companies, is to do so at every level of society. So to me that makes AI anything the antithesis of the classical world.
Thank you for hosting my guest post!
Socrates whole stand was defending the Athenian laws and codes of justice during that time, which he rightfully did. On that point he was correct. There's no point in having laws and punishments if every convicted individual flees to escape what may be a just punishment. However, Socrates was convicted of "corrupting the youth of Athens" which gets lost in these discussions. Corrupting the youth sounds like a very subjective crime. I'm not sure if he had the ability to appeal or if that's a more modern convention, but when reading about the trial it doesn't sound like he defended himself very well and there were a lot of high ranking officials who were annoyed with what Socrates was doing. And on that point, defending himself, holding the Athenian justice system to its own high standards, and putting the accusers on the stand he was wrong.
Just my thoughts and happy to read what other people think too.
He was tried and sentenced primarily for rejecting to honor the traditional gods of Athens, and for corrupting the youth it was because he was teaching them to disregard traditional values and question authority.
To me, that’s clear it was a losing game. Not sure if he could’ve defended himself well enough when the game was set against him.
Thanks Fritz, forgot about the Gods.
Having been taught under the Socratic method for three years... it's not all it's cracked up to be. And sometimes wasteful of both the instructors and students' time
The Socratic method is useful for exploring spiritual and intelligible concepts but definitely breaks down when considering tangible objects. The Socratic method also requires that you accept contradicting yourself because your point in one discussion may use the same words to describe something completely different in another discussion. Many miss this important aspect.
I love the idea of the so-called "Great Conversation" as a debate rather than a lecture. It’s a very liberating way to look at philosophy.
If his previous philosophical reasoning was sound and just, then a death sentence because of that reasoning (for supposedly causing the youth to question the status quo) is unjust. If his reasoning was not sound before then perhaps it was not sound as he reasoned in the present that his death was just. In any event, always get multiple opinions in a case of life and death and Socrates had only consulted one other philosopher. There would be no opportunity to correct such a methodological error after death, but he could always agree to death later if there was a consensus.
Not a philosopher but I wonder if there is a notion of fairness that is missing from these arguments. Can a decision be 'just' but be unfair? That is what the Socrates case feels like to me.
“Did Socrates make the right decision to accept his punishment” is the theme of my philosophy class! Students usually start out thinking no, and by the end of the semester tend to argue yes. Me personally I vacillate.
(Side note: I disapprove of the AI thumbnail, especially for a blog about classical literature/education.)
Sounds like a great class! As to your side note, may I ask why? Is it a compelling image? Does it accurately portray the nature of the article? Is it just the use of AI? Genuinely curious!
I just find AI an anti-human technology. And classics are all about truths of humankind.
Do you think it is inherently anti-human? or as a man-made technology an extension of humans? I like to contemplate how Socrates complained about writing... I think these relationships are always more complicated than they first appear.
My Socratic-style argument is that AI images are a further distortion of reality than even paintings and other art which he/Plato considered distractions from a search for truth and perfect forms. Of course, I think man-made art and writing are good— they’re what makes human lives interesting, imo— but AI removes the human here. The ultimate telos of AI, per the CEOs at the big AI companies, is to do so at every level of society. So to me that makes AI anything the antithesis of the classical world.
🧐 How should the Guardians be raised?
A dialogue essay on noble puppies.....
https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/68fd5da0-62d8-40df-860b-9d2050b52c87
.....the conversation continues. 🏺🌐⚔️🛡️🔔
A synthetic dialog. 🌄✍🏼🏺⚖️⏳🐃📜 The education of the guardians of the Polis:
https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/68fd5da0-62d8-40df-860b-9d2050b52c87
Socrates wasn't wrong......🪔😌✔️
Thank you