First, the puritanical, Judeo/Christian/Islamic obsession with “the body being evil” would be incomprehensible to those of the Ancient World. Egyptian queens wore “see though” gowns...I saw at either the National Museum in Napoli or Pompeii itself a mural. It showed a man, apparently headed off for a battle someplace, stark naked except for his battle gear over his left shoulder. His wife, son, and other relatives are behind him bidding him goodbye. Then there’s the murals in the bathhouses at Pompeii... risqué!
If “Adam and Eve” were unashamed until the ate the apple, encouraged by the wise serpent... to discover then that they were naked.... well; this would logically indicate that the “pagans” were “innocent.”
Mr. Charles F. Posited in his post that the Jewish God’s promise to Israel is “eternal.” Though I have Jewish ancestry on my Father’s side, I find such comments inappropriate for this site. “Preaching.”
For the record, I am a quasi-pagan agnostic.
Love your travelogue and articles! They are as the Winds of Zephros; pleasant and stimulating.
Don't forget that the Japanese bathe communally. I am not advocating for more nudity in society - clothes do perform salutary functions, such protecting us from the harsher aspects of our environments- but I do think we need less body shame and body shaming in our modern world.
It is true! But then again, there are strict rules in Japan about going into the shared waters with tattoos and other taboos (as well as body shaming) - which adds another dimension into the conversation.
Excellent point; my comment wasn't concise enough. Each culture has it's own taboos. I just wanted to bring in the idea that modesty is defined differently in different cultures.
Some level of modesty helps people understand the rules of interactions. Clothing helps protect us from the environment and it's also a way to communicate. If I go to the beach and swim in a bikini, I'm dressing (somewhat) for comfort and not necessarily signaling sexuality, but if I go to a bar in a lowcut, short cocktail dress, I'm probably signaling an interest in being approached, even though I'm much more covered up than I was at the beach. I have zero modesty, but I also like being comfortable and I don't care much for attention, so I dress according to the situation. Part of the problem with the rules about modesty is that females are the target of an obsession with controlling female bodies. When in public I have no desire to draw attention, but if I'm outside in my yard gardening on a blazing hot day, I would like to stay cool and feel the wind on my chest rather than have a shirt sticking to my body. Simple life pleasures that some take for granted. I can remember almost 45 years back going to the beach with a sister, a fellow jogger, and we parked at the end of the parking lot and then walked about a mile to where it was deserted, and we could swim and jog without tops on. The breeze and the water sliding across the chest felt fantastic without the tight elastic strap from a bikini. At some point we saw a boat in the distance and as it came closer, we saw 2 males and as they came even with us, they turned the boat to come directly at us. We put our tops back on and pulled out the knife and pepper spray we had in our bottoms. The jerks then turned and headed back out. It's not enough that we were by that point about 2 miles from anyone on the beach, as it was fairly obvious to anyone with even a single brain cell that we weren't trying to draw attention. Were we immodest? The misogynistic Puritanical judges would say yes. Even Kate Middleton couldn't escape and just enjoy a breeze because of these jerks and their telescopic lens, followed by misogynistic commentary.
Anyone who finds the human form offensive is... what to call them? I remember, long time ago (I am 67) when people complained that a mother was nursing her infant naturally on a Greyhound bus. I will never understand how anyone could be offended by that. In Europe, toplessness is everywhere. In Germany, most, male and female, don’t use swimsuits at all.
I don't see the human form as offensive, but clothes not only protect us but also set the tone for interaction. When I nursed, I used a blanket to completely cover up, but I would still get nasty stares as the baby legs were visible and it didn't take much to figure out the baby was nursing. Germaine Greer talked about this in an interview recently where people want to see big breasts but are offended at women using their breasts for the purpose they were made for. It's a mental problem.
I was very happy to be nursing mostly in Latin America. I remember once when it was hot and I was feeding my daughter in Brazil, a waiter (male) ran over and brought me water without even my having to ask him. Fortunately I had no problems when I visited the US as well (though I was in areas with large Latin populations... so maybe that was why? or perhaps the mentality has changed).
Why should one be ashamed of who or what they are? That’s not, in my opinion, a genuine reflexion of personal really, but reflects the societal and cultural values of the culture in question.
In ancient Sparta, or Egypt, same sex partners were totally acceptable. In my opinion it is the “religious community” which has demonized so many. Michelangelo, Da Vinci, and many others who suffered unknown and unrecorded.
Why can’t people be judged by their responsibility to society and their contributions to civilization at large, rather than with whom they like to have a tryst? Why do people even concern themselves with other people’s personal lives? Two answers appear in my mind: in order to judge and condemn (thereby making them “morally superior” - in their own minds at least; justifying hatred) - or, they have no “inner life” so nose around in the lives of others. Pretas, if I remember my Buddhist readings correctly. Means something like “hungry soul” or “empty.”
Yes, this is one area where I think the ancients had more sensible practices.
Still, some body shame is appropriate - I love Tom Nichols tirades over bare feet on air planes. Gross! Put them dogs away please, you’re sharing that cramped space with lots of other people.
Ha ha!!! My husband has strict rules about shorts and showing calves in public (must be near water). I saw that in Georgia and Armenia shorts are looked down upon for both men and women and he was happy to find 'his' people.
Along with the destruction of the Greco-Roman world, Eastern-monotheism attitudes toward nudity ruined our ancients' very healthy recognition of our natural bodies—from the public baths to the countless nude statues in the streets. Geographically, it's no wonder that Northwestern European attitudes towards nudity are radically different (compared to Southeastern), with mixed-sex nudity as a requirement in spas being the norm in countries like Netherlands & Germany.
First, the puritanical, Judeo/Christian/Islamic obsession with “the body being evil” would be incomprehensible to those of the Ancient World. Egyptian queens wore “see though” gowns...I saw at either the National Museum in Napoli or Pompeii itself a mural. It showed a man, apparently headed off for a battle someplace, stark naked except for his battle gear over his left shoulder. His wife, son, and other relatives are behind him bidding him goodbye. Then there’s the murals in the bathhouses at Pompeii... risqué!
If “Adam and Eve” were unashamed until the ate the apple, encouraged by the wise serpent... to discover then that they were naked.... well; this would logically indicate that the “pagans” were “innocent.”
Mr. Charles F. Posited in his post that the Jewish God’s promise to Israel is “eternal.” Though I have Jewish ancestry on my Father’s side, I find such comments inappropriate for this site. “Preaching.”
For the record, I am a quasi-pagan agnostic.
Love your travelogue and articles! They are as the Winds of Zephros; pleasant and stimulating.
Don't forget that the Japanese bathe communally. I am not advocating for more nudity in society - clothes do perform salutary functions, such protecting us from the harsher aspects of our environments- but I do think we need less body shame and body shaming in our modern world.
It is true! But then again, there are strict rules in Japan about going into the shared waters with tattoos and other taboos (as well as body shaming) - which adds another dimension into the conversation.
Excellent point; my comment wasn't concise enough. Each culture has it's own taboos. I just wanted to bring in the idea that modesty is defined differently in different cultures.
Yes! Definitely a good point...
Some level of modesty helps people understand the rules of interactions. Clothing helps protect us from the environment and it's also a way to communicate. If I go to the beach and swim in a bikini, I'm dressing (somewhat) for comfort and not necessarily signaling sexuality, but if I go to a bar in a lowcut, short cocktail dress, I'm probably signaling an interest in being approached, even though I'm much more covered up than I was at the beach. I have zero modesty, but I also like being comfortable and I don't care much for attention, so I dress according to the situation. Part of the problem with the rules about modesty is that females are the target of an obsession with controlling female bodies. When in public I have no desire to draw attention, but if I'm outside in my yard gardening on a blazing hot day, I would like to stay cool and feel the wind on my chest rather than have a shirt sticking to my body. Simple life pleasures that some take for granted. I can remember almost 45 years back going to the beach with a sister, a fellow jogger, and we parked at the end of the parking lot and then walked about a mile to where it was deserted, and we could swim and jog without tops on. The breeze and the water sliding across the chest felt fantastic without the tight elastic strap from a bikini. At some point we saw a boat in the distance and as it came closer, we saw 2 males and as they came even with us, they turned the boat to come directly at us. We put our tops back on and pulled out the knife and pepper spray we had in our bottoms. The jerks then turned and headed back out. It's not enough that we were by that point about 2 miles from anyone on the beach, as it was fairly obvious to anyone with even a single brain cell that we weren't trying to draw attention. Were we immodest? The misogynistic Puritanical judges would say yes. Even Kate Middleton couldn't escape and just enjoy a breeze because of these jerks and their telescopic lens, followed by misogynistic commentary.
Anyone who finds the human form offensive is... what to call them? I remember, long time ago (I am 67) when people complained that a mother was nursing her infant naturally on a Greyhound bus. I will never understand how anyone could be offended by that. In Europe, toplessness is everywhere. In Germany, most, male and female, don’t use swimsuits at all.
I don't see the human form as offensive, but clothes not only protect us but also set the tone for interaction. When I nursed, I used a blanket to completely cover up, but I would still get nasty stares as the baby legs were visible and it didn't take much to figure out the baby was nursing. Germaine Greer talked about this in an interview recently where people want to see big breasts but are offended at women using their breasts for the purpose they were made for. It's a mental problem.
I was very happy to be nursing mostly in Latin America. I remember once when it was hot and I was feeding my daughter in Brazil, a waiter (male) ran over and brought me water without even my having to ask him. Fortunately I had no problems when I visited the US as well (though I was in areas with large Latin populations... so maybe that was why? or perhaps the mentality has changed).
Being in a Latin area likely made a difference. I also believe the mentality is changing, though unevenly depending on the area.
Why should one be ashamed of who or what they are? That’s not, in my opinion, a genuine reflexion of personal really, but reflects the societal and cultural values of the culture in question.
In ancient Sparta, or Egypt, same sex partners were totally acceptable. In my opinion it is the “religious community” which has demonized so many. Michelangelo, Da Vinci, and many others who suffered unknown and unrecorded.
Why can’t people be judged by their responsibility to society and their contributions to civilization at large, rather than with whom they like to have a tryst? Why do people even concern themselves with other people’s personal lives? Two answers appear in my mind: in order to judge and condemn (thereby making them “morally superior” - in their own minds at least; justifying hatred) - or, they have no “inner life” so nose around in the lives of others. Pretas, if I remember my Buddhist readings correctly. Means something like “hungry soul” or “empty.”
Yes, this is one area where I think the ancients had more sensible practices.
Still, some body shame is appropriate - I love Tom Nichols tirades over bare feet on air planes. Gross! Put them dogs away please, you’re sharing that cramped space with lots of other people.
Ha ha!!! My husband has strict rules about shorts and showing calves in public (must be near water). I saw that in Georgia and Armenia shorts are looked down upon for both men and women and he was happy to find 'his' people.
Along with the destruction of the Greco-Roman world, Eastern-monotheism attitudes toward nudity ruined our ancients' very healthy recognition of our natural bodies—from the public baths to the countless nude statues in the streets. Geographically, it's no wonder that Northwestern European attitudes towards nudity are radically different (compared to Southeastern), with mixed-sex nudity as a requirement in spas being the norm in countries like Netherlands & Germany.